Thunderace conversion

How have you made your GTS go quicker?

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24c
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Thunderace engine day 1

Postby 24c » Sun May 02, 2010 5:18 am

heinlein wrote:Congratulations; it's always nice to see significant progress on a project...

Thanks, I am pleased too, but again it's the start of the next journey, whether it will be better who knows as it's only day 1, but first impressions are it seems snappier on part throttle looking at the video, which suggest it will be quicker revving. The engine also has a higher compression, so the maximum torque figure should be higher, but as to what the cam timing, port differences and the EFI do, it's just guesswork.

The ignition timing needs tweaking, and for some reason the coolant temp is too low and the air temp too high, so I am going to load the latest alpha 3.0.3t, which fixes a few things. Also the injection event is slightly off, or at least it sounds like it is, with that lumpy idle, but again I am running tired stock coils to create an electrically noisy environment, which is not ideal. I will be fitting my R6 stick coil conversion once I get smooth idle, and nice throttle response (unloaded, until I dyno or go down the road)

There is no lambda or O2 sensor in the exhaust yet, which needs tweaking (more upswept) too, before I can go down the road, but I will be fitting an Innovate LC1 wideband, once I put in the bung.

The bike is going to go to the this years European Treffen at Harz, but it's OmegaChassis hack bike (that had a rattly GTS engine) with my Thunderace engine! This means it has to be rebuilt properly to pass it's MOT, before it is taxed to go down the road. OmegaC will also needs to upgrade a lot of the tired metal and plastics, swap the shocks for Öhlins, different seat, swap to Krauser panniers and higher windshield for touring.

When the bike is roadworthy, I am sure it will bring a smile to our faces, dispel a few myths about the GTS engine superiority, and give others the opportunity to explore this conversion, if they want too. It won't stop there for me, as I will be fitting different throttle bodies and injectors later.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Re: Thunderace Drain Plug

Postby baasharm » Wed May 05, 2010 7:58 pm

24c wrote::

Get to the back (of the room...English colloq.) baasharm :wink: :)


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: congratulations.

You know I will be bugging you with questions, right? :whistle:

The YZF is running with the modded engine. I had 125 bhp with it on the dyno, but it couldnt' breath well with the stock 750 airbox nor the modified thunderace airbox. I've opened up the bottom of the thunderace airbox and now it pulls much harder all the way to redline.

In the meantime I blew my time (and budget) on an alfa romeo that was a bit more of a project than I anticipated. But I expect to get to work with that injection project in the next few months.

Anyway, congrats again, really good work!! :cheers:

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Re: Thunderace Drain Plug

Postby 24c » Thu May 06, 2010 7:55 pm

baasharm wrote:You know I will be bugging you with questions, right? :whistle:

Yes, you and a few others, but I don't have the answers yet. In a few months maybe... :twisted:

I am waiting for some 6mm standoffs to mount my boards in the FJ1200 ECU case, then I can start to solder the connectors. Also I have to look for a cam sensor with the Thunderace head. I do not want to use a GTS1000 parts, as I need to change the sensing position.

I am also looking at the MSExtra code and wondering whether I should go sequential injection.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Thunderace dyno curve

Postby 24c » Thu May 06, 2010 11:19 pm

I found a Thunderace rear wheel horsepower curve off the web, and just for a little fun, superimposed my dyno runs on it. There is some talk on listserv that the GTS1000 has loads of low down grunt etc, but it might have a superior part throttle response re the carbed Thunderace, but a tuned 'Ace vs my tuned GTS, is a definite winner.

Image

Discuss if you want, or we will just have to wait and see, but all the anecdotal stuff I have read or heard about the Thunderace suggests it is no low rpm slouch.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Re: Thunderace Drain Plug

Postby baasharm » Sun May 09, 2010 11:29 am

24c wrote:Also I have to look for a cam sensor with the Thunderace head. I do not want to use a GTS1000 parts, as I need to change the sensing position.


Dont know its helpful, but I have bunch of FZR/YZF camcovers lying around that could be cut up.....

24c wrote:I am also looking at the MSExtra code and wondering whether I should go sequential injection.


I think sequencial is so much more elegant

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Re: Thunderace Drain Plug

Postby 24c » Sun May 09, 2010 3:00 pm

baasharm wrote:Don't know if it's helpful, but I have bunch of FZR/YZF camcovers lying around that could be cut up.....

Might be, was only planning on drilling a hole, dropping an aluminium adaptor adaptor into it and welding the cover back up. The problem is, can you see the cam lobe for sensing purposes, or is it hidden under the camshaft holders, but then maybe I can use the end of the cam shaft. I'll have to look at a FZR YZF head assembly.


baasharm wrote:I think sequential is so much more elegant
It is but the bike uses it only some of the time, and you need a cam sensor. It is better for emissions, and a few other bits.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Re: Thunderace Drain Plug

Postby 24c » Sun May 09, 2010 3:00 pm

Double post, 3G USB stick and trackpad latency.... :oops:
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Thunderace engined GTS1000 running MSExtra3.0.3s Day2

Postby 24c » Sat May 15, 2010 2:25 pm

Finally a day off work, and a little play again. I needed to sort out the irregular slightly lumpy idle, and once I reloaded the MicroSquirt with the last running settings from Day1, I managed a start.

I need to tweak the cranking pulses, as it needed a little bit of brake cleaner to get it going, but best bit was I thought the idle was an air leak. The easiest way to test is to put your hand over each throttle body and choke the engine, if they all die at the same rate, but on doing cylinder 2 I got a hiss.

Further investigation showed it had no pilot or idle screw, as it had been used as a sample perhaps for the new batch that were made.

Once I got the engine warm, I realised the air temperature and coolant had switched, so it was affecting the fuelling and advance, so know wonder I had problems with the timing light. It is a software fault with this alpha code I am using, that I was not aware of, so hopefully it won't be there when I upgrade to 3.0.3t.

I have got the bike running nicely (on the centre stand) using "untimed injection" or batch injection, and "semi sequential". Both of these do not need a cam sensor, but have different fuelling algorithms.

I will add a video link later, but I am well impressed with the Thunderace conversion so far, it's just unfortunate the neighbours are too close, and I am working tomorrow, otherwise I would be further down the line, by the end of the weekend.

http://gallery.me.com/mike.crane/100088
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Thunderace engined GTS1000 day 4

Postby 24c » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:55 pm

Yet again, I have had a day off, and time to look at OmegaChassis's Thunderace engined GTS1000 project.

I brought two cased Microsquirts along, one running the original 3.0.3s code the other running the latest 3.0.3u. After a hesitant start, my cranking rpms were set to low, and the fuelling needed hiking up. Apparently the MSExtra semi sequential code needs a different required fuel constant (half of the normal untimed injection mode)

After a few minutes and swapping the MAT and Coolant wires in teh loom adaptor, I started to get sensible readings. a few tweaks to the acceleration wizard, mods to injection points etc, I got a steady idle on an unknown engine.

It actually sounds very good off idle and you can rip the throttle and it takes off, no baulking. I am well impressed, and ordered a lambda sensor sleeve to mod the exhaust further. OC needs to get the rolling chassis up to spec now, and I will refine the rest of the fuel and ignition tables on the road, so it's up to OC now to get on with , as it'll take a week or so of constant refinement to get it to touring/cruising standard.

PS The latest code is definitely cleaner running.

Movie links will be added later.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Re: Thunderace engined GTS1000 day 4

Postby 24c » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:59 pm

24c wrote:Movie links will be added later.


For some reason, the usual upload to MobileMe isn't working at the moment, so I have hosted them here, both less than 4MB.

http://www.mjscrane.com/EFI/Video/ThunderaceEFI.html
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Thunderace running Day4

Postby 24c » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:51 pm

I managed to get another Saturday off, and while the missus is way, Mickey Mouse will play. I have tweaked the Cranking pulses, ASE and WUE curves for the semi sequential set up, and after a few missed starts, almost catching I got it.

However the bike is idling way too fast, which is over fuelling, and too much advance, which can be caused by the vacuum or the MAP fluctuating and running higher in the tables, or incorrectly set engine parameters re TDC not set right in the MicroSquirt.

So after more tweaking and equalising the values for the fuel & ignition bins at idling ranges, I started to dial in offset in the timing until the RPM dropped to nearer normal levels. Next I reduced/increased the fuel until I got the smallest MAP variation and least idle hunting.

Then I hooked up the timing light, and with the ignition at a default 10 degrees BTDC in the ignition tables, I altered the offset until it was bang in the middle of the "H" mark on the crank, bingo the MicroSquirt is now timed to the engine, so if I put 20 degrees in the ignition bin, I get 20 degreesBTDC advance levels. Thanks to OmegaC for dodging most of the oil drops coming out of the inspection hole. :P

The bike starts easier, but I have to tweak the roll off idle and restore the fuel and ignition bins, outside the idle speed ranges, which I will leave for another day, and give OmegaCs neighbours a rest.

:clap: :clap: :clap:


24c wrote:The problem is, can you see the cam lobe for sensing purposes, ...8<...but then maybe I can use the end of the cam shaft.


I have been looking at my bits and pieces, and this is the best way to go, and hopefully I can use this on the GTS1000, and not mess with the boxes. I am going to rework the rocker box cover...when I get time.
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Re: Thunderace running Day4

Postby OmegaChassis » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:06 am

24c wrote:Thanks to OmegaC for dodging most of the oil drops coming out of the inspection hole. :P


Well I could not have done it without the aid of your glass's :!: 8)

Look's like i better get my finger out and get it road worthy for the mot and some road testing and data logging, now that's when the fun will really start :!: :lol: :lol:
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Postby baasharm » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:22 pm

The goodies arrived today:

Image


LC-1 wideband, air & coolant temperature sensors.

For 10 USD I found a digital LED display from fleabay to show AFR:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 5311wt_957

I'll be installing these on the bike this week so the fun can start before the EFI is running :D

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Thunderace EFI project

Postby 24c » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:09 pm

baasharm wrote:...for 10 USD I found a digital LED display from fleabay to show AFR:


Good idea, great link...I bought one for something else... but you can read AFR in software, using an iPhone, TunerStudio with PC, Innovate with PC, and MegaTune with PC, and the LC1 output will also talk to TunerStudio and "auto tune to your AFR targets" using VE ANalysis Live ...needs registration. 8)

Do you know which software you are using yet?
I've just started riding the GTS again, and it'll be changing

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Postby baasharm » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:27 pm

I just want something small and simple (and cheapo 8) ) to monitor AFR while driving. I'll install the LED on the 2nd analog output of the LC-1 so I can read the AFR without the MS hardware installed. Later MS will use the 1st analog channel. When I have MS operational, I guess I'll have to use a laptop for autotuning and/or a palm for datalogging.

I've also bought the car temp meter with external probe from the same shop to monitor the intake air temp while driving. I've modded the airtbox and I want to make sure that I the intake air is cool enough without having to wait until I have MS operational.

I'll start out with megatune and probably move on to tunderstudio when it's additional features become a nessecity . For hardware, I'm inclined to go for microsquirt because of it's smaller size. Pricing (including casing and wiring) is similar and the KDFI doesn't seem to have a real advantage for controlling my EXUP valve


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